並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E6%A5%8A%E5%AD%90%E5%84%80%E3%81%AE%E8%94%AC%E6%9A%A2%E4%BA%BA%E7%94%9F/ep15%E6%84%9B%E6%81%A8%E6%83%85%E6%84%81%E8%B2%AA%E5%97%94%E7%97%B4%E4%B8%80%E7%B4%A0%E6%B3%AF%E6%81%A9%E4%BB%87-feat-%E7%B4%A0%E9%A3%9F%E5%A5%B3%E7%A5%9E-%E7%94%B0%E7%BE%BD%E5%AE%89-jz7MIBChcYL/